Curse

Surgo · Feb 29, 2012, 08:54 PM // 20:54

In the eternal quest to find anything usable that's not Barrage, I've started taking a look at this skill. It has potential...but it has problems. Namely, the terrible duration and recharge.

24 second recharge, and a duration of 1...10...12. And let's be honest, nobody really wants to put points in the otherwise useless Wilderness Survival line. The best breakpoint is probably at 9, which gives a duration of 8 seconds and +5 damage. That's still pretty bad.

There's Practiced Stance, but that is such a waste of an elite skill. You can keep Choking Gas up permanently, but it's a stance so you lose out on your IAS for it. Unless you bring a pet, but now you spec points into yet another attribute line! There's Weapon of Aggression, but then you give up Splinter Weapon for that...

I'm not very good at playing Ranger, so maybe some others have better ideas. This is the best build I could come up with: OgYVcRrhx8qOqVCG0WgHk241Q2I4A. You end up with a pretty wide attribute split, but you can stack +17 damage on your arrows and spam Needling Shot (which is armor ignoring on top of that). I figured I'd throw Ignite Arrows on there for when you don't care about the interrupts, but I'm not sure how I feel about it. The damage seems pretty mediocre compared to Death Blossom spam, which is itself not even that good compared to spellcasting classes.

Any ideas? Anything that can be done to bring down the recharge / up the duration of Choking Gas? Practiced Stance is just such a bad skill, I feel it's really holding the build back.

Kunder · Feb 29, 2012, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Best overall build using CG would be an Incendiary Arrows ranger that has Serpent's Quickness to reduce CG's recharge. Its still bad though, only 50% uptime @ 16 WS.

Practiced Stance is the only way to actually use CG at anywhere near 100% effectiveness, and as you noted wasting your elite and your prep is a bad trade just to make a weaker version of Panic. QQ rangers stink.

doomfodder · Feb 29, 2012, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Best overall build using CG would be an Incendiary Arrows ranger that has Serpent's Quickness to reduce CG's recharge. Its still bad though, only 50% uptime @ 16 WS.

Practiced Stance is the only way to actually use CG at anywhere near 100% effectiveness, and as you noted wasting your elite and your prep is a bad trade just to make a weaker version of Panic. QQ rangers stink.

PvE Rangers can be spike killing machines!!!
This ranger build can kill almost anything in HM (that doesn't block or heal) in just 3 bow attacks

zealous hornbow
12+3+1 exp
12+1 to 3 marks (depending on how much health you're willing to play with)
dual shot
sloth hunters shot
triple shot
glass arrows
drunken master (use alcohol to speed up attacks with zealous bow)
I am the Strongest
+ any 2 other skills of your choice (antidote sig in case you're worried about blind, or paragon shout GTFE for possible more damage, or leech sig + web of disruption for cheap unobstructed rupts)

Kunder · Mar 01, 2012, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

PvE Rangers can be spike killing machines!!!
This ranger build can kill almost anything in HM (that doesn't block or heal) in just 3 bow attacks

zealous hornbow
12+3+1 exp
12+1 to 3 marks (depending on how much health you're willing to play with)
dual shot
sloth hunters shot
triple shot
glass arrows
drunken master (use alcohol to speed up attacks with zealous bow)
I am the Strongest
+ any 2 other skills of your choice (antidote sig in case you're worried about blind, or paragon shout GTFE for possible more damage, or leech sig + web of disruption for cheap unobstructed rupts)

Horrible for a spike build, should be using a conjure + EBSoH (+30 damage per arrow). Also Hornbows are ridiculously bad, use a flatbow for a free 25% IAS. Please for the love of god don't waste your secondary on stupid things like interrupts you can't wait to use or the near-worthless (for you) GftE.

Pretty much any physical can kill an enemy in the time it takes for 3 hornbow attacks, and they generally put out a lot more AoE damage while doing it.

That said, the "QQ ranger stinks" was referring specifically to the relative overall ranger power (see comparison with Panic mesmer). Any decent build and non-shit-for-brains player can still roflstomp PvE HM, rangers just require a 5% higher level of intelligence from the player than the other classes to do so.

Wenspire · Mar 01, 2012, 01:10 AM // 01:10

If ChokingGas damage isn't armor ignoring, it could benefit from EbonHonor. I haven't used CG in a long time so can't remember what kind of packet damage it does.

Xsiriss · Mar 01, 2012, 09:28 AM // 09:28

The biggest problem for rangers isn't just lack of variation but also their poor energy management. Expertise is only passive and active will almost always beat passive, so if you want decent energy management you'll have to do a bit of hero micro'ing for body shot or take prepared shot which wastes your elite.

It'd be super awesome if they made practised stance allow multiple preparations to be used and volley to not strip preparations (PvE of course). I mean that's not even 'OP', compared to most other professions.

This is why I normally just run R/P Spear Chucker.

Kunder · Mar 01, 2012, 12:59 PM // 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xsiriss

The biggest problem for rangers isn't just lack of variation but also their poor energy management. Expertise is only passive and active will almost always beat passive, so if you want decent energy management you'll have to do a bit of hero micro'ing for body shot or take prepared shot which wastes your elite.

It'd be super awesome if they made practised stance allow multiple preparations to be used and volley to not strip preparations (PvE of course). I mean that's not even 'OP', compared to most other professions.

This is why I normally just run R/P Spear Chucker.

No, expertise is actually the best type of energy management in the game. +energy skills give linear gains, -%energy cost give exponential. The problem is that Anet realized this from day 1 and made all expertise-affected skills 2-3x as expensive so that using expertise makes you at best break even.

ogre_jd · Mar 01, 2012, 03:56 PM // 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

No, expertise is actually the best type of energy management in the game. +energy skills give linear gains, -%energy cost give exponential. The problem is that Anet realized this from day 1 and made all expertise-affected skills 2-3x as expensive so that using expertise makes you at best break even.

Gotta disagree. Expertise sucking so bad is the main reason I went Beastmaster - Enraged Lunge, Predator's Pounce, Crossfire, Savage Shot, Call of Haste, Otyugh's Cry, Call of Protection, Comfort Animal. Except for Savage Shot (not used too often), and Call of Haste (only every 30s and one of the few expensive Ranger skills where the benefits outweigh the cost), everything costs 5e. That and Zealous Barrage builds are the only way I've found to not run out of Energy every other foe...

Pew · Mar 01, 2012, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre_jd

Gotta disagree. Expertise sucking so bad is the main reason I went Beastmaster - Enraged Lunge, Predator's Pounce, Crossfire, Savage Shot, Call of Haste, Otyugh's Cry, Call of Protection, Comfort Animal. Except for Savage Shot (not used too often), and Call of Haste (only every 30s and one of the few expensive Ranger skills where the benefits outweigh the cost), everything costs 5e. That and Zealous Barrage builds are the only way I've found to not run out of Energy every other foe...

Even with a spec of 8+1 Expertise, it's really, really hard to run out of energy. Running out of energy is a fault of yours, not Expertise.

I'd have to agree with Kunder on the CG front, IA and Serpent's Quickness would be the best way to go at the moment.
CG is one of those skills that could be really good, but that Duration/Recharge ratio is just awful.

Needling Shot might be useful in said build for some shutdown on particularly tough bosses.

Hopefully CG will get looked at in the Ranger update. :<

Kunder · Mar 01, 2012, 10:05 PM // 22:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by ogre_jd

Gotta disagree. Expertise sucking so bad is the main reason I went Beastmaster - Enraged Lunge, Predator's Pounce, Crossfire, Savage Shot, Call of Haste, Otyugh's Cry, Call of Protection, Comfort Animal. Except for Savage Shot (not used too often), and Call of Haste (only every 30s and one of the few expensive Ranger skills where the benefits outweigh the cost), everything costs 5e. That and Zealous Barrage builds are the only way I've found to not run out of Energy every other foe...

Yes, thats exactly what I said. -50% energy cost for skills doesn't matter because Anet raised too many ranger skills to 10-15e, which means you need high expertise just to break even. Pretty much no ranger skills should be costing more than 5e as far as PvE is concerned.

Hugh Manatee · Mar 03, 2012, 01:23 AM // 01:23

About choking gas, you could use dwarven stability+serpents quickness to get the recharge down, and spam attack skills a bit faster. The only thing you shouldn't be able to destroy during choking's uptime is a dungeon boss.

Also of note, you don't have to LIVE in practiced stance, you could just be in it long enough to get choking up, then switch to your IAS or whatever. prac stance recharges in 15 seconds, about the same amount of time choking will be recharged. Tun on prac stance, engage choking, engage IAS, commence interupty wackiness

Broad Head Arrow and condition spamming might make a better tactic, with apply poison, hunter's shot, maybe pin down backed by a fevered dreams/fragaility mesmer, or something with epidemic. With a silencing string you should be able to keep even something with decent resistance dazed continuously(like duncan the black)

Also, Hornbows kick ass when you use them right, just as flatbows will suck if you use them incorectly. I agree that doomfodder's bar isn't very good, A proper Glass arrows spike chain looks more like this: Triple Shot>Sundering Attack>Penetrating Attack>Savage Shot with double shot/body shot for when the latter 3 recharge as well as a few other buffs(fave winds, winnow, a weapon or conjure, orders, shouts ect, not all this has to be on YOU but it should be in the party somewhere). Under an IAS these 4 attacks should happen in about 2-3 seconds, and the target should die after the chain runs though, and since each of these attacks(except the lead) have fixed attack speeds and your middle 2 attacks have no aftercast, the drawbacks of the horn bow are negated, and you enjoy an extra 10% in armor penetration, that iirc does stack with sundering shot and penetrating shot. Further more if you take alternating lead attacks you can use the combo every 5 seconds. It used to be a LOT stronger before they nerfed asuran scan and By Urual's Hammer, but it's still a potent way to play. Take a paragon with zeallous anthem and some shouty physical buffs for more fun.

Kunder · Mar 03, 2012, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Hornbows are always, always a horrible idea. It gives at most ~3 damage per attack, while Flatbows/Shortbows attacks 35% more often. Its not even close to being a contest, Hornbows get wiped out no matter what.

FYI, there is no such thing as "negating hornbow's disadvantage". You can slightly mitigate it, but faster attack speed will always improve the speed of firing.

Quote:

Also of note, you don't have to LIVE in practiced stance, you could just be in it long enough to get choking up, then switch to your IAS or whatever. prac stance recharges in 15 seconds, about the same amount of time choking will be recharged. Tun on prac stance, engage choking, engage IAS, commence interupty wackiness

Yeah, the problem with practiced stance is that it takes up an elite slot, not that it interrupts stancing.

Surgo · Mar 03, 2012, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

I wouldn't call Incendiary Arrows and Serpents Quickness useless and if you care to bring PvE skills, Ignite Arrows and Ebon Battle Standard of Honor stck up with it for some nice boom-boom.

You could consider using choking gas when needed, without attempting to keep it up permanently, to temporarily shut-down a group of casters.

Practiced Stance + Choking gas actually works, somewhat, for caster shut-down. Flurry used to go with it as IAS, though one could indeed go for NRA, with or without investment in beastmastery - and the pet can be used tactically.

Incendiary Arrows doesn't even need a single point in Wilderness Survival to do what it's best at (be a mini-Barrage that doesn't strip your preps). No argument about Serpent's Quickness but here it's just a weaker (though non-elite) version of what you're using Practiced Stance for.

I think if they updated Practiced Stance to give a 25% IAS while in a preparation, or something, it would be an interesting choice. But while we're wishing, we could use an update of just about every single thing that a Ranger has that isn't named Barrage.

As far as using Choking Gas on a non-permanent basis -- it does have a 2 second activation time, and no Fast Casting behind it. That's not good, and besides, every other class can keep up their "preps" indefinitely :/

Hugh Manatee · Mar 04, 2012, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

...It gives at most ~3 damage per attack...

So it does do more damage then a flat/shortbow with each attack.... As said, when they multiplied damage with the old asuran scan or BUH it added up nicely, but more damage is still more damage even if it's less more damage...

Quote:

FYI, there is no such thing as "negating hornbow's disadvantage". You can slightly mitigate it, but faster attack speed will always improve the speed of firing.

Unless the skill has a fixed firing speed which overrides the auto attack rate.... 1 second attack, like sundering, is the same on a hornbow and a flat bow. Nothing stopping you from using the harder hitting horn bow during your spike chain, then swaping to the flatbow during the cooldown to auto attack with, you have 4 weapon slots, use them grasshoper. This is actually what i do myself, use the hornbow to chain, then swap to a zealous/vamp flat or short bow in the interval .

Thing is, your scenario isn't very practical, a ranger just auto attacking, or not using attack skills in a chain to spike, or not saving itself for interrupting is kinda doing it wrong(unless you're spamming barrage)... If you're saving your attacks for interrupt skills you'll be using the recurve bow or short bow for accuracy. If you're using an attack chain or attack skills, taking an inaccurate high arcing flatbow is a risk, since half your attacks could miss if you target moves, it's arc is higher then the horn bow and it has a longer flight time, and if you take favorable winds or read to correct that, you may as well use the hornbow for the extra damage anyway since it's accuracy gets improved as well. If you're just going to auto attack or are that concerned about attack rate, as in to back up a pet or activate barbs or mop or something, you may as well use spear.

The scenarios where Flatbows work really well is for Barrage backed by FW, since the skill recharges in 1 second you'd need the flat or short bow to take advantage of the maximum firing rate. That or like in fort aspenwood where kurziks can snipe the raw amber mines from the parapets, you need either a flat or longbow to hit them, but the longbow will be slightly more acurate and has a lower flight time if you're spiking them with an attack skill chain. If you're just pressuring with poison and like melshot or something, flatbow will dps faster.

Swingline · Mar 04, 2012, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Hornbows are terrible because they reduce your dps over time through their slow attack speed and the 10% armor pen doesn't make up for it, not even close. That 25% IAS from flatbows does way more damage in the long run.

The only time I can remember when hornbows were good was back in HA r-spike days.

Surgo · Mar 04, 2012, 06:40 PM // 18:40

If all you're doing is Barrage (or some other fixed-speed attack), Hornbows are great. I use one for the rare times I run Barrage on my Assassin.

Kunder · Mar 04, 2012, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh Manatee

Unless the skill has a fixed firing speed which overrides the auto attack rate.... 1 second attack, like sundering, is the same on a hornbow and a flat bow.

Unless your chain includes tripleshot/double shot (or any other similar skill), where using a flatbow (especially with IAS) puts you nearly 1 attack skill ahead of someone with a hornbow. That 1 extra attack skill will do a heck of a lot more damage than a mere +3 bow damage (which gets worse as enemy armor goes up).

Quote:

If all you're doing is Barrage (or some other fixed-speed attack), Hornbows are great. I use one for the rare times I run Barrage on my Assassin.

Barrage still benefits from quicker attack speed. IAS up to a little bit faster then longbow speed gives full benefits, while beyond that you only get half the IAS benefit (it helps pulling the string faster but recovery is limited by Barrage's recharge). A short/flatbow with 33% IAS can barrage approximately once every 1.6s, while a hornbow without IAS can only hit once every 2.7s. Potentially a 68% attack speed increase, though you have to really jam barrage to reach it. Realistically more like 40-50% faster attacks.

Surgo · Mar 05, 2012, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Whoops, for some reason I thought Barrage had a fixed speed. Ignore me.